Take heed to the Episode
Episode Overview
On this episode, Luke speaks with Dan Kessler, President of Energage, about their partnership and shared mission to enhance office tradition. Dan outlines Energage’s “pyramid” methodology, which measures worker engagement primarily based on particular person expertise, supervisor relationships, and senior management’s route.
They focus on how Energage’s in depth benchmarking information helps organizations perceive their standing and drive enchancment. Dan clarifies widespread misconceptions, emphasizing that tradition constructing is a steady course of owned by everybody, not simply HR, and that actions may be easy and low-cost. The dialog highlights the essential position of managers, with Mo’s collaboration aiming to equip them with actionable insights.
Dan shares a concrete buyer success story and divulges how Energage’s worker engagement information correlates with future fairness worth, defining a “human capital issue.” He concludes by advising leaders to increase grace to themselves and strategy each interplay with intentionality and an openness to worker suggestions.
Episode Transcript
Luke: Hello all people, I’m right here with Dan. Dan, we’ve spent the final 12 months or so fleshing out an exquisite partnership, and I’m very, very excited to have you ever that includes on the podcast. Will you begin us off, inform us just a little bit about you and a bit about Energage, please?
Dan Kessler: Thanks, Luke. Likewise, it’s been one of many pleasures of the previous 12 months attending to know you and the workforce at Mo and all the outstanding work you’re doing. So, I couldn’t be extra excited for the dialog forward and the good work we’re going to be doing collectively. So, very briefly, a bit about myself and Energage. I’m the President of Energage. Our enterprise has been round nearly 20 years. I’ve been there for many of that journey, about 15 of these 20 or so years.
Initially, we’re a purpose-driven enterprise. The explanation we exist, Luke, as , is to make the world a greater place to work collectively. That drives every thing we do. Some of us is perhaps conversant in the B Company motion, which is de facto about connecting goal and revenue. There are literally thousands of B Firms all over the world, and certainly one of our actual badges of honor at Energage is that we had been one of many first 20 B Firms on the earth. The best way that we do this essentially is we construct and model profitable workplaces. We do this by means of the voice of the worker. We collect suggestions from staff, and we assist them perceive what’s going on of their group, assist inform a measurement of worker engagement, and assist drive enhancements they’ll take to repeatedly construct their tradition, which we’ll discuss so much right here, I assume. Then essentially, we actually assist inform the world about what makes their tradition distinctive. In order that’s only a bit about what we do, and I’m actually excited to spend a while right here with you speaking about {that a} bit extra, and in addition the distinctive facets of what Mo and Energage can do collectively.
Luke: Excellent. Thanks a lot. Ought to we begin with Energage’s pyramid? I do know so much about it and the way you concentrate on the office expertise and the way you measure what issues. Do you thoughts simply speaking us just a little bit round your methodology and the way you measure what issues?
Dan Kessler: Sure, after all. I feel that’s the good place to start out. As you’re speaking in regards to the pyramid, the visible that folk typically take into consideration is sort of like Maslow’s hierarchy of wants if you’re fascinated about assessing a tradition. Finally, the result of a fantastic tradition from our perspective is having excessive ranges of worker engagement. There are three ways in which we measure that: Am I as an worker motivated to offer my finest? Am I loyal to the group, that means I’m not in search of one other job? And am I keen to refer a pal or colleague to work on the group? So, basically, that’s an worker Internet Promoter Rating.
When you concentrate on these three elements of motivation, loyalty, and referral, they’re nice representations of that mindset of worker engagement and the discretionary effort that we’re all in search of to drive higher productiveness, higher outcomes. In and of themselves, they aren’t truly very actionable. So we take into consideration that because the output of a profitable tradition. What we’re additionally doing is de facto measuring the drivers of that. So what are the inputs to worker engagement, that are actionable?
Should you form of get again to that visible, the pyramid, if the highest of the pyramid is that sense of engagement, the bottom of the pyramid actually begins with the particular person worker expertise. You, Luke, as a person worker, are you paid pretty for the work that you simply do? Are you getting the coaching? Do you may have, nonetheless you concentrate on work-life steadiness, flexibility, do you may have what you want to handle your life, your particular person worker expertise? That’s form of the inspiration, proper? Should you’re not getting that proper for the person worker, it’s going to be exhausting to form of transfer them up the pyramid in the direction of that engaged frame of mind.
From there, we then take into consideration the connection between that supervisor and that frontline worker. Loads occurs in that relationship, and that’s a kind of superb shared worth areas after we take into consideration what you and the workforce have constructed at Mo. When you concentrate on that relationship between the supervisor and the frontline worker, it’s, am I appreciated by my supervisor for the work that I’m doing? Am I in a position to share what’s actually on my thoughts? Does my supervisor frankly simply care about me as a human being? Do they care about my progress and reaching my potential? So a whole lot of these issues occur at that manager-employee degree.
Then the third and remaining constructing block in the direction of that absolutely engaged tradition will get all the way down to issues that are typically extra beneath the management of the senior management. The 2 dimensions there are issues like, is there a transparent route that the group understands and is aligned round? Do we’ve got a way of shared values as a company? Is there a way of that means within the work that we’re doing? You’ll be able to think about how these issues actually come from if the senior management hasn’t figured that out and isn’t aligned on that. It’s very, very troublesome to cascade that by means of a company and actually embed it.
The opposite piece fairly merely will get all the way down to how the work will get carried out. A number of that’s about communication, proper? So we discuss communication up, that means, do you as a senior chief perceive what’s truly happening within the group? Then do I as a frontline worker really feel knowledgeable in regards to the issues that basically affect my position? As organizations scale, how will we get issues carried out throughout departments? Usually, as we’re doing the work, is there a whole lot of friction? Is it simply troublesome to get issues carried out collectively? These are basically the constructing blocks of that pyramid. Then should you form of return to the place we began, which is that sense of motivation, loyalty, willingness to refer, these are all of the levers right here which are at play which are going to drive that engaged frame of mind for the person worker.
Luke: Makes a whole lot of sense. So I come to you as a buyer. I run an evaluation, a survey as to the place I stand towards these drivers within the pyramid. How do you assist me drive a pathway to enchancment? How do you assist me perceive how I stack as much as the competitors?
Dan Kessler: So there are a couple of items to that, and to your level, when an employer involves us, the very last thing you stated might be the primary place the place these employers are beginning, which is, we wish to know the place we stand. Should you take a step again, how are you aware the place you stand, proper? It’s an enormous market. A lot is exclusive about an employer in relation to the place they’re positioned, the trade that they’re in, the dimensions of the group. We all know this stuff actually form and drive the way you construct a tradition and what sort of tradition you want. A part of the profit, frankly, of getting been round for a pair many years and having constructed our enterprise round this measurement instrument that has remained comparatively constant over time is we simply have extraordinary benchmarking information.
In order that first step, to your level, when it comes to the place I stand, isn’t just a generic benchmark of, right here’s the way you evaluate to each worker that we’ve occurred to measure over the lifetime of the corporate. It’s extra about, we are able to evaluate you to firms in your trade and in your dimension. So should you’re an accounting agency, proper, we are able to evaluate you to different CPA corporations which have a couple of hundred staff. A part of step one after we’re working with an employer, particularly on the management degree, is, do they purchase into the information and the way in which that we’re analyzing it? Having these credible benchmarks is, frankly, the 1st step as a result of in the end it places that information in context.
The opposite factor, and I do know we’ll get into this a bit extra, is that firms come to us as a result of they wish to stand out as an employer of alternative. As , Luke, we have fun and acknowledge prime workplaces everywhere in the United States. Due to that, it’s a reasonably elite benchmark. The opposite necessary degree set for the employers that we work with is to say, in the end, we all know that you simply wish to be the perfect. So we’re going to check you to the perfect. That may be just a little bit uncomfortable for folk as a result of it’s an elite benchmark.
From there, you begin to actually get into what are the instruments and techniques to truly drive affect all through the group? There are numerous mechanisms that we’re ready to try this. If you concentrate on only a widespread organizational construction and having the ability to perceive what are the assorted shifting components and basically subcultures which have emerged inside the departments in your group? How are numerous slices of your staff, from a tenure or a job degree, or a wage band, or a efficiency grade, how are these of us experiencing your tradition in another way, and the way does that form the best leverage actions which you could take to repeatedly construct the tradition?
Then frankly, it’s about, how do you additionally on the identical time discover these issues that you simply’re doing effectively and assist have fun that with the skin world? So these are the forms of actions that we’re seeing with staff. Extra lately, what I feel you’re additionally conscious of, Luke, however thrilling to share, is we’ve now broadened our suite with a set of expertise administration instruments to get into much more actions that organizations can take in relation to learn how to perceive the profile of their staff, learn how to encourage extra one-to-one check-ins, learn how to do high quality efficiency administration. So, we’re actually constructing that sturdy set of actions which you could take together with your expertise to proceed to construct and form a profitable tradition.
Luke: I feel, perhaps the million-dollar query if I used to be sat listening to this quite than asking the questions could be, what does it take to turn out to be a prime office?
Dan Kessler: So, I feel that’s the proper query. To form of zoom out for a sec on that query, an employer desires to be an employer of alternative, Luke, they wish to stand out. Should you actually zoom out, should you’re sitting within the footwear of an employer and also you need this recognition that you’re a prime employer, what are your choices? One possibility is you may go and purchase an award.
Luke: Yeah.
Dan Kessler: An alternative choice is you may be a part of what is basically an essay writing contest, and you could find a extremely good author to earn you an award.
Luke: Yeah.
Dan Kessler: It’s also possible to enter a reputation contest the place you spin up a fantastic advertising and marketing marketing campaign, get a whole lot of votes, and growth, you’ve bought an award. As , we don’t actually purchase into any of that. We predict one of the best ways to find out whether or not or not an organization is a prime office is just by asking the workers what they consider the tradition. The one standards that goes into figuring out whether or not or not an organization is a prime office is the quantitative information that we seize and measure primarily based on all of these objects that we’re speaking about from that pyramid that we began with. That’s it.
It’s a must to earn it, and it’s important to earn it day in and time out, which we’ll additionally discuss, and it’s important to earn it within the moments that matter, as . The one different piece I’d add to that, which I feel is necessary for several types of employers that is perhaps listening to us yap away right here, is that the hurdle that you want to get to is completely different primarily based on the dimensions of the employer. In order that’s what we don’t do: evaluate a ten,000-person group to a 100-person group as a result of that may be a very completely different tradition, a really completely different expertise that you simply’re making an attempt to handle. However essentially, to your level, you’ve bought to earn it, and also you’ve bought to earn it by means of quantitatively measurable suggestions from the workforce.
Luke: Yeah, and I feel that utterly is sensible, proper? As a result of should you have a look at a ten,000-person group versus a 100-person group, the ten,000-person firm most likely has 100 individuals of their HR workforce, .
Dan Kessler: That’s proper.
Luke: It’s good to know that for anybody sitting there pondering, “Wow, how would we ever compete with Microsoft?” There’s your reply.
Dan Kessler: Proper.
Luke: Cool. Okay. That is sensible. So let’s say I’m a newly appointed Chief Individuals Officer. I’m in a zone wherein I’m like, “Okay, cool. This appears like a giant, furry, scary aim for me: turn out to be a prime office.” The place do I begin? What do I actually need to suppose by means of within the first one, two, three steps to get me going?
Dan Kessler: So, it’s an exceptional query, and what that dialog tends to sound like in that early stage is, after we’re speaking to that chief individuals officer or that member of the management workforce, what we’ll hear is, “We’ve bought a reasonably good tradition right here.” We’ll say, “Cool. Inform us just a little bit extra about that.” They’ll discuss, frankly, oftentimes it’s speaking about firm occasions that they’ve carried out, all-hands conferences that they do, philanthropic actions that they do, which once more, are all superior in and of themselves.
Then they’ll form of share some perhaps basic observations about pondering they’ve bought a very good tradition. We’ll say, “That’s superior. Properly, how are you aware?”
The primary hurdle is de facto guaranteeing that from a management perspective, Luke, is the workforce actually open to suggestions? That’s a extremely necessary, it sounds easy, however that’s actually an necessary query {that a} new management workforce or a brand new particular person individuals chief wants to actually ask themselves. After all, you and I’d say should you’re not, let’s discuss that, and also you’re lacking the mark. So there’s an apparent reply to that query. However the motive that you simply wish to actually perceive that, and we do nonetheless discuss to individuals leaders who say, “Look, our house owners, for instance, in a smaller firm, are literally not prepared but.”
Luke: Yeah.
Dan Kessler: I’d problem that, and I feel you and I each know that you simply wish to problem that as a result of in the end the suggestions, the sentiment is on the market.
Luke: Yeah. Persons are saying it whether or not it or not. Yeah, yeah.
Dan Kessler: Whether or not it or not, individuals have a perspective on their tradition. They’re speaking to one another about how they’re experiencing your office. So there must be an openness to that and an urge for food. As soon as we recover from that hurdle, okay, then we are able to get into the dialog and actually begin working with, effectively, what does that imply as soon as we’re open to suggestions? However to your level, from a “the place will we begin,” that’s the place to begin. It’s, is there an openness? If there’s not, let’s work on that. Let’s work by means of that resistance. We dive in.
Luke: I feel the elephant within the room for me is that as of late individuals have the flexibility to share on Glassdoor or Certainly critiques or no matter, proper? So whether or not you wish to hear it or not, individuals will give it. Subsequently, it’s only a query of how a lot management would you like over your popularity and perspective of what individuals are placing on the market.
I feel asking most leaders that they know that popularity is a large quantity of the story in enterprise, proper? Subsequently, fascinated about proudly owning your popularity and what individuals are saying and fascinated about you perhaps offers you elevated ranges of management by asking the query and accepting that you simply won’t like the reply.
Dan Kessler: And so, it’s a possibility to take management of it, be as intentional about it as you may be. I couldn’t agree extra.
Luke: Yeah. Then let’s simply discuss by means of. So we run a survey, we get all of this perception and intelligence. What do you discover usually are just like the blind spots or perhaps a few of the myths which are on the market that organizations are inclined to then face on this journey as soon as they’ve bought that management dedication?
Dan Kessler: I feel one of many, I don’t know if it’s a blind spot per se, or only a misperception, which is that I feel typically there’s this sense that if we take all this suggestions from staff, there’s going to be this expectation of large change and large actions.
Luke: Yeah.
Dan Kessler: And costly actions that we have to take primarily based on what we’ve heard from the workforce. I feel that’s an actual miss and actually will get in the way in which of tradition constructing, tradition shaping, and celebrating nice cultures. As a result of as you and I each know, from a management perspective, it’s a day-to-day train to construct and preserve a profitable tradition, a prime office tradition. So, what we’ve got seen repeatedly is that what the perfect firms are in a position to do is construct a muscle of asking for suggestions, taking that in, after which taking what can typically be easy and albeit, low-cost to no-cost actions in response to that suggestions.
Frankly, Luke, in lots of instances, these actions align with issues that will have already been in movement. There might already be conversations happening from a management perspective. A part of it’s merely a communication of connecting what you’re listening to from the workforce to issues that you simply’re engaged on, as a result of once more, in robust cultures, there’s most likely already some overlap there.
So, are there instances the place, “Wow, we have to actually reset the values, the enterprise technique, all of these issues”? After all, that’s most likely not going to return up from an worker. Should you’re listening to that in an worker survey, you had been most likely already conscious that there wanted to be a much bigger transformation. So, there are these edge instances, however that may be a huge misperception from our expertise of doing this actually 1000’s of instances, which additionally frankly helps dial down the stress from a pacesetter. In order that’s form of one piece.
The opposite piece I’d say from a notion that may get in the way in which of constructing and celebrating profitable cultures is that tradition is just not the duty of HR. Tradition is just not the duty of the CEO or the chief workforce. The tradition must be owned by each single worker. Once we discuss in regards to the moments that matter, and we discuss in regards to the suggestions that we collect from a workforce, and the way we then take motion on that, the place that basically occurs is at that team-level dialog about what we heard and what we’re going to do as a workforce.
What am I going to do as a person worker to assist make the tradition at Energage, at Mo, as robust as it may be to attain our objectives? Then, sure, there are items that we’re going to say, “Look, what, I feel this could actually assist our tradition. That’s truly most likely not in my management as a person worker. That’s most likely just a little bit out of scope for our workforce.” So I’m going to bubble that up and align that to some total enter to the management workforce. However essentially, that sense of shared possession for our popularity as an employer, for the kind of tradition that we wish to work in, must be owned by everybody. I feel we regularly miss the chance to set that tone after we’re doing the sort of work.
Luke: I couldn’t agree with you extra. I feel, Dan, there’s most likely a extremely helpful perception which you could give to individuals right here about you. You’ve carried out this for 20-plus years. You’ve bought a whole lot of information, you’ve bought a whole lot of buyer conversations, like does it simplify and boil all the way down to a set of key levers to drive change in organizational tradition? Given what you’ve stated, it appears like there are some threads in there.
Dan Kessler: Sure, after all. Finally, Luke, a whole lot of this comes again to what we’re fascinated about and desirous to do collectively, which is that, essentially, it’s about this openness to truly being open to listening to our staff, which isn’t essentially a dedication to taking motion on every thing we hear. It’s an openness, however then essentially it’s about these essential conversations that occur within the one-to-one, within the workforce assembly, and the problem-solving across the management desk. How will we inform these forms of interactions with a perspective on the kind of tradition that we wish, what we’re listening to from the workforce, and driving that steady motion? I feel these are the items that we’ve seen. The businesses who form of construct that muscle and get that proper are the businesses which are in a position to actually construct and preserve that standout popularity, that standout tradition.
Luke: Yeah, attention-grabbing. We regularly in our work discuss in regards to the supervisor. I do know that represents the center chunk primarily of your pyramid, and sometimes the supervisor has the best affect and the best frequency of affect on the day-to-day expertise of the worker. How do you concentrate on equipping managers with each the appropriate insights and the capabilities to drive change?
Dan Kessler: Sure, let’s discuss that for a sec, as a result of right here’s what we all know in regards to the supervisor position. Primary, they’re terribly busy, particularly within the present atmosphere, proper? Managers are being requested to tackle increasingly more. They’re most frequently well-intentioned. I feel you and I each imagine that almost all managers should not waking up on daily basis pondering, “How can I make my workforce’s life extra depressing?” They’re making an attempt to perform as finest they’ll, proper, from their world and the issues that they’re balancing personally and professionally. They’re on this distinctive center position, to your level on that pyramid, the place on the one hand, they’ve bought some sort of senior management affect saying, “Hey, these are the company targets we’re making an attempt to attain,” or “listed below are the adjustments that we have to drive by means of the group,” they usually’re making an attempt to handle to that. But they’ve additionally bought a workforce that they should encourage and interact and take heed to and perceive what their perspective is, and they’re this connective tissue between these two.
Our burden is to easily empower that group as shortly and effectively as doable with the insights into what’s on the minds of their workforce, and provides them the best leverage alternatives to maneuver the needle, to drive higher engagement for his or her groups, as a result of once more, we all know what that interprets to within the enterprise outcomes. That’s the place, Luke, and we must always discuss extra about this, the place Energage and Mo come collectively when it comes to how we empower these managers to truly transfer ahead. So I don’t know if you wish to say extra about that, however that’s the place we see the connection level.
Luke: Yeah, I utterly agree. I feel it comes all the way down to managers being exceptionally busy and them not having an unlimited period of time. The atmosphere and situations that they’re creating for his or her workforce are certainly one of many priorities that they’ve. Subsequently, the fantastic thing about the work we’re doing collectively is using Energage insights and equipping managers with a management assistant, with the actions that we imagine, primarily based upon that perception, they need to look to take. Subsequently, it offers you actually excessive levels of leverage, however in small, bite-sized chunks that may be delivered into the palm of your supervisor’s hand. So, if anybody desires to speak to us about that, they undoubtedly ought to.
Simply perhaps then if we are able to begin to consider rounding out the dialog with a few success tales. I’ve two asks for you: one, when it comes to buyer transformation tales that spring to thoughts, after which perhaps any standout enterprise successes for any of the cynics which are saying, “What’s the worth of being a prime office for my group?”
Dan Kessler: Sure, I’ll share a few issues as we form of wind down the dialogue right here, Luke, which is, and this may form of make it actual. As , Luke, we’ve bought a whole lot of those tales, however the one which involves thoughts is a constructing merchandise producer. So that they’re a stone producer with a couple of hundred staff.
Luke: Okay.
Dan Kessler: Take into consideration the work that they’re doing. We bought all this information in, and what did they hear? This sort of will get all the way down to the very concrete, easy actions that they take. One which they discovered was that certainly one of their groups had merely grown too giant. It was not being managed effectively due to spans of management and the way in which that workforce was structured. It merely required some reorganizing, rethinking these administration layers to drive extra effectivity and connection. Secondly, they discovered that the workforce was actually longing for extra management coaching alternatives, and what had been some packages that might be put into place. Then third was some very concrete, tactical suggestions about their advantages that become, once more, extra of a communication than essentially a value or a further funding from a advantages perspective. So if you form of zoom out and also you get again to the place we began, which is these bite-sized actions, insights that we are able to take, that’s a really concrete, actually from a stone producer instance of how this stuff work.
The larger level is to say that if we zoom approach out, the opposite factor that our information has knowledgeable with an organization known as Irrational Capital is that we’ve got demonstrated that worker engagement information that we seize is a driver of future fairness worth.
Luke: Okay.
Dan Kessler: This information has been used with different publicly accessible human capital information to outline one thing known as the human capital issue, which JPMorgan, one of the vital respected monetary analysts on the earth, has printed a handful of white papers on this information to outline how this human capital issue can drive future fairness worth. So what we’re speaking about right here is each relevant on the day-to-day degree of constructing a tradition and driving the appropriate group on the departmental degree, all the way in which as much as how we truly use all of this as a lever to construct future fairness worth, future enterprise worth that delivers an enormous shareholder return.
Luke: Wow, that may be very cool. Possibly we must always try to get a few of these studies from you so as to add to the footnotes for this, as a result of I’m positive that’s a really, very attention-grabbing learn. Dan, I’m going to shut this out and ask you for one last item, which is, what’s your one piece of recommendation? So, any chief that’s listening to this they usually go, “I’m impressed, and I actually wish to construct a prime office, one as a result of I care, and two, as a result of it appears to be the appropriate factor for my enterprise.” What could be the one piece of recommendation that you simply give to them?
Dan Kessler: Luke, I’m going to offer you a bonus. I’ll offer you two. So, the primary one, fairly merely as a pacesetter, is to have some grace with your self, as a result of we’re all human beings with this stuff known as brains and hearts and feelings. So know that you simply’re not going to get it proper each single day and each single interplay, and no person will. That’s the very first thing. The flip aspect of that’s to carry that intentionality as finest you may, and that openness to listening to the voice of your staff to each single interplay, that means e-mail, assembly, one-to-one. These are the moments that matter that may assist construct and maintain a profitable tradition.
Luke: Superb. Dan, thanks ever a lot. Very a lot appreciated to your time, your insights, the dialog with you.
Dan Kessler: Thanks.
