00:00: Introduction with Zaid Al Qassab
03:58: Zaid Al Qassab’s shell shedding second – melancholy
09:53: How individuals responded
12:12: Learnings
18:18: One piece of shell-shedding recommendation
Sarah Ellis: Zaid, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us for this very particular episode of the Squiggly Careers podcast.
Zaid Al Qassab: Thanks very a lot. Pleasure to be right here.
Sarah Ellis: Earlier than we dive in to your shell shedding moments, I questioned should you may give us a little bit of a window into your world as a CEO. So most of our listeners will not do the job that you just do and doubtless possibly that is not a job they will ever do. , most individuals do not find yourself doing a CEO job. So I simply questioned whether or not you would give individuals a little bit of the fact of the everyday. What do you spend your time doing? What does a typical day within the lifetime of a CEO, if such a factor exists, what does that seem like?
Zaid Al Qassab: Properly, I believe it is definitely nothing like what individuals may think as a result of I believe should you have been to ask a layman, somebody on the street, they’d say, oh, CEOs run corporations. And I suppose, I suppose as a very brief headline, I suppose that is proper. However as anybody will recognize who’s doing their very own job, the CEO does not actually do their job. They’re hardly ever there once they’re working or at a desk or in a gathering or in a manufacturing unit or in a store. The CEO is nearly nameless to them. So the CEO clearly is not truly doing the work of operating the corporate. So what are they spending their time on? After I took this position, somebody mentioned to me, nicely, CEOs mainly do technique and organisation, so they do not do any of the work everyday. They do what is the course of the corporate and what is the type of individuals and capabilities and capital wanted for operating the corporate. And I suppose that is proper. However once more, it does not give individuals a lot of an perception. I’d say I spend a 3rd of my time interested by the way forward for the enterprise in a approach that the individuals engaged on the everyday haven’t got the time for. I most likely spend a few third of my time interested by the form of the individuals and the instruments and the aptitude and the issues that we spend money on. And loads of that frankly goes round assembly individuals, getting a way of what is going on on within the enterprise, of the place our strengths and weaknesses are, of what individuals on the everyday job assume we ought to be doing and shouldn’t be doing, simply having a way in order that we are able to change course. And since we’re a listed enterprise, I most likely spend a few third of my time on stuff to do with buyers and the markets and analysts and issues like that which nobody ever sees until they’re the CFO or CEO, actually. So loads of that’s stuff individuals have by no means skilled. I would definitely by no means skilled it earlier than I grew to become a CEO. And it is all a fairly unusual world that works very in a different way from the way you’d assume.
Sarah Ellis: Considering now about your shell shedding second. In order a reminder for our listeners, I believe in all people’s job, it does not matter what profession stage you are job you are in, we’ve got these moments the place we really feel susceptible. It is most likely fairly power zapping, identical to when the lobster loses that onerous outer shell. We type of have these moments the place we do really feel fairly jelly like. However maybe what’s reassuring is figuring out that after these moments or form of by way of these moments, you find yourself rising, studying, and in the end higher due to it. Although on the time I believe it’s totally uncommon that it feels that approach. However typically it may be fairly good to know that these, these form of robust moments have actually good payoffs for our development for our improvement. And I believe typically from the surface in you, you realize, all of us have a look at individuals like yourselves in these, you realize, in these CEO jobs with spectacular titles and operating corporations, and also you assume it should all be clean crusing. They do not have these shell shedding moments as a result of they know what they’re doing they usually’re form of tremendous sensible, however I believe all people has them. In order that’s the explanation that we needed to speak to CEOs for this primary sequence, was to actually be sure that all people felt that this was like, it is a common concept. So do you’ve gotten an instance of a shell shedding second that you just’re ready to share with our listeners at this time?
Zaid Al Qassab: Properly, I’ve many examples, however essentially the most seismic one for me was undoubtedly the second I made a decision to open up at work about the truth that I’ve melancholy. I will use the phrase popping out for this as an expression, not as a result of I am likening it to the expertise of the LGBTQ group, however simply it is a appropriate phrase to borrow and there is not actually a terminology for it. And one of many causes there is not a terminology for individuals speaking about melancholy is it is nonetheless barely taboo. It is nonetheless a kind of belongings you usually do not hear about. For those who have a look at the stats, you are speaking about one thing like 1 / 4 of individuals having a psychological well being problem in any given 12 months. That is loads of us. And also you definitely do not hear 1 / 4 of individuals strolling round speaking about the truth that they have psychological well being challenges. So my shut household knew about it. I most likely skilled it for, I would say about 10 years, most likely earlier than I got here out about it.
A number of shut pals knew and that was about it. And so, and so popping out about it opening up about it was a very massive deal for me. Largely as a result of I used to be actually anxious in regards to the response truly. Yeah, it is not nicely talked about, so it is not nicely understood. Although it exists in each household, it is not a very good match with the archetype for our trade in any respect. Entrepreneurs are supposed to be excessive power, life and soul of the get together, consistently inventive. , that is the position they play in a workforce or in a boardroom. And though truly, you realize, being depressive has no mandatory compromise on any of these issues. I simply knew that wasn’t the notion how it could be considered. And admittedly, resilience and stability, which is what you search for in leaders, they’re form of the alternative of how the media portrays depressive individuals. , normally very up and down, very moody, very non committal, arduous to get to do something. So once more, the stereotype out there’s not very aligned to the type of attributes that you really want. And as a pacesetter, frankly, you realize, who, how does it have an effect on individuals’s opinions of you? , who needs to comply with somebody who says they seem to be a depressive? That is not a rational response. Proper. However it, however I may completely see that that may be an emotional response. So it was a giant deal.
Sarah Ellis: And I assume the distinction between us and lobsters is that the lobster does not select, it does not select to shed its shell. It is a part of its DNA and it form of occurs. Whereas what you’ve got simply described is a really intentional alternative as a result of it was, it is not one thing that you’ve at all times shared. Such as you mentioned, you, you’d skilled it for 10 years, however then there was a form of a second the place you made, you decided. What was it that made you assume like, now’s the time the place I do wish to shed that shell. Was there a selected dialog or did you simply really feel like truly it is nearly more durable to not discuss it than it’s to speak about it as a result of it is a actually scary, scary factor whenever you, there’s so many unknowns, you realize, every thing you simply described there. I do not know the way persons are going to react to me in my position. I do not know the way, whether or not individuals need me as a pacesetter. There’s a number of, a number of Uncertainty that you may’t get a definitive reply on earlier than you make this resolution. So that you’re coming into that shell shedding second figuring out that there is heaps you do not know.
Zaid Al Qassab: Yeah. Look and since I’ve been open about it, after all, many individuals have been very complimentary and mentioned, it is actually good that you just discuss it and what a courageous factor to do and the way useful to others I’ve. Half of it was, sure, being useful to others. Half of it was fairly egocentric. Proper. I would actually change my way of life to assist handle my melancholy. For instance, I would cease consuming. And in our trade, that is fairly arduous to handle. Proper. I imply, there’s loads of locations and events and occasions the place it is simply booze being served and also you get seen with nice suspicion, particularly by your individual workforce. Why is not the boss consuming? Is he simply watching us? What is going on on right here?
Sarah Ellis: Or does that imply that I should not drink?
Zaid Al Qassab: Sure, precisely. , you realize, it feels such as you’re making a giant social assertion. I wasn’t, I used to be simply not consuming as a result of it, it helped me handle issues. I would began or gone again to taking part in tennis commonly. I do this as a result of that is my little thoughts area. That is, that is my approach of decompressing and it is actually necessary for me in my, in my way of life selections and in managing my melancholy to play tennis. However that signifies that typically I used to be type of leaving the workplace at 5 o’ clock and going, sorry, I’ve to go away, I am off to play tennis. And once more, does not actually match with the archetype of a pacesetter of a enterprise in our trade. , try to be there all evening, you realize, engaged on a pitch or an emergency that is occurred on the enterprise. And once more, I used to be discovering these issues arduous to handle. And admittedly, it was simply actually arduous work, hiding the actual fact that there have been issues I used to be doing as a result of I did not wish to say, I am managing my melancholy. Proper. So, so I believe it was voluntary, but it surely was not solely altruistic. It was partly about getting my very own frame of mind, proper. And having the ability to be myself. Individuals use that expression, convey your complete self to work. And I, I discover it considerably deceptive as a result of nobody brings their complete self to work or we would all be turning up in our PJs. However there’s, there’s some elements of you which might be very troublesome to cover at work. And that was one for me. So, you realize, I believe the second was going – nicely, I do know it may assist different individuals if I am open about this. I’ve at all times recognized that. However I hadn’t realised beforehand that possibly I wanted to assist myself just a little bit about it.
Sarah Ellis: And has something shocked you? So since you’ve gotten been rather more form of open, nearly like since you’ve got shed that shell, such as you mentioned, a number of individuals have responded actually, actually positively. However have there been any sur surprises alongside the best way?
Zaid Al Qassab: I used to be shocked that even after a number of preparation, I nonetheless discovered it very troublesome and emotional. I imply, the primary individual I instructed at work was my boss and I cried, which I wasn’t anticipating to. After all it is emotional. To me, it does not. I am not embarrassed that I cried, however having ready rather well for it, I did not assume I’d break down in tears after I talked about it.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah.
Zaid Al Qassab: However, you realize, I believe that it meant so much to me and it was an enormous weight off my chest to have the ability to clarify myself and have somebody who may perceive what was occurring within the office. I imply, I will not say it was a shock that folks got here out and thanked me, however with out giving freely names, I had a minimum of half a dozen individuals, senior individuals in our trade, who messaged me privately and mentioned, I’ve melancholy too, however I’ve by no means instructed anybody about it. So I am grateful for them as a result of they’ve confided in me. I’ve by no means let down their confidence. However it shocked me how many individuals on the market, they usually’re simply those who responded, felt, sure, I am in the identical scenario, however I do not but really feel that I may discuss it. So these messages have been shocking. Now, look, I perceive and settle for that I am in a privileged place. I used to be senior after I did it. C suite. I am a CEO now. I believe it’s simpler for me to do it than for somebody extra junior as a result of they are going to be terrified of the consequences on their profession and the way they’re seen and a bunch of issues that I did not actually have to fret about. I would already type of proved myself in my profession and bought to a comparatively senior position. So I assume it is more durable for extra junior individuals, however I’d nonetheless encourage them as a result of I do know what an enormous increase it’s to have the ability to be open about these issues. And fortunately, you realize, generationally, clearly, I am in the direction of the top of my profession and people who find themselves in the direction of the start of it, fortunately, are rising up in a world the place it is a little more widespread to have the ability to discuss these items and that it is thought-about the best factor to do. And I am delighted that it’s as a result of it hopefully will make it simpler for them.
Sarah Ellis: One of many issues that we all know is we have been asking individuals to fill out their be taught like a lobster profile, which will get individuals to map the three completely different elements of the form of fascinating options of a lobster. So form of develop as you go, like studying as you go. The training in arduous moments that we’re speaking about at this time and main your individual studying. And a few thousand individuals have finished these profiles now. And it is studying in arduous moments that’s by far and away the factor that folks discover most troublesome. Individuals will say, I can be taught after the second, you realize, after I’ve. With the good thing about hindsight, after I’ve form of gone by way of the second, I can possibly replicate again, however within the second, it does really feel arduous. So whenever you have been in that second of sharing, you began to speak to individuals, you speak to your boss, you speak to individuals in your organization, began to turn out to be rather more public. What do you assume helped you form of, in that second, whether or not that was a day, every week or a month, simply by way of. For your self, form of discovering your approach by way of that, that. That troublesome shell shedding, form of awkward, susceptible time the place for lots of people, they’re simply in coping mode, like make it by way of mode, we typically name it, versus studying mode. And that is the factor that we’re actually attempting to assist individuals with, could be very small methods that you may nonetheless be taught and develop, even when it feels arduous, whether or not any person’s going by way of a redundancy, sharing one thing for the primary time, possibly they have a very difficult tradition that they are working in.
Zaid Al Qassab: After I first talked to my lead workforce, one in all them fortunately fed again to me afterwards and mentioned it was actually beautiful you instructed me that, however I did not know the way to react as a result of I did not know why you have been telling me. And I did not know what I used to be meant to do with it. And I did not know whether or not I used to be meant to be a shoulder to cry on, or that you just have been getting one thing off your chest, or that there was an necessary subsequent step, or I used to be meant to care for you. And I realised from that dialog, fortunately to that individual, that there was an adjustment I wanted to make to how I used to be doing this. I wanted to elucidate to individuals why I used to be doing this and what I needed them to do in return. So by way of that studying within the second, the truth that I am a talker and hopefully a listener too, and will get that suggestions reside was actually useful. I believe that is how I be taught. I do it by seeing how individuals react after which, oh, that did not go down fairly nicely. I ought to do one thing in a different way subsequent time. So it was a studying within the second expertise. It simply required adjustment, type of fixed adjustment.
Sarah Ellis: Properly, what’s very nice about that, which is among the issues that we truly discuss about studying in arduous moments, is quick suggestions. So truly any person was, such as you mentioned, truly form sufficient and doubtless courageous sufficient to offer you some quick suggestions. One of many issues that we’d encourage individuals to do as nicely is get actually good at noticing. Like after I take heed to you describe the way you navigated that point, I sense that you just’re good at noticing, noticing individuals’s reactions, noticing possibly what’s not being mentioned or the place persons are getting a bit caught. And so I believe should you’re in that onerous second, should you can discover, it could possibly usually offer you knowledge factors to be taught from. Oh, individuals all look a bit confused after I’ve instructed and really confusion wasn’t possibly what I used to be anticipating. So. Okay, so why are individuals confused? Perhaps it is simply because they’ve not bought the readability of like, what do you, what would you like from me? Like, how can I assist you?
Zaid Al Qassab: Yeah, look, and I am a individuals watcher, self confessed, you realize, so I like that type of factor.
Sarah Ellis: Are you sitting in a restaurant and watch individuals go previous individual?
Zaid Al Qassab: My favorite vacation exercise is to sit down in a restaurant and watch individuals go previous. And so I am used to that. I nonetheless assume that whenever you’re in these arduous moments, you are so self obsessed, you realize, attempting to do what you are attempting to do, proper, that it is actually arduous to note these issues. And I do not know if I’d have if somebody hadn’t mentioned to me afterwards, by the best way, Zayd, I do not know the way you needed me to react and I do not know what I used to be meant to do. I imply that was massively, massively useful that they did. Would I’ve observed it in any other case? I am undecided.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it is arduous. One of many strategies we try to assist individuals with, we discuss how one can get distance as a result of should you get distance, it provides you a unique form of knowledge to your improvement and practising what we name the fly on the wall method. So since you’re so in it, you realize, together with your experiences, you realize, clearly you feel that and it is, it is that it, it’ll simply be as emotional and there is form of so much entering into and also you’re so near it as a result of it’s you attempting to get individuals to simply even momentarily be that fly on the wall, as should you have been form of watching. That may typically simply offer you sufficient, simply sufficient knowledge to go, oh, okay, that does assist me to note that. Discover that just a little bit extra. I did an episode on that just lately and other people discovered that useful.
Zaid Al Qassab: I am a large fan of the fly on the wall. I believe that personally, I believe the best way you utilize it finest is to try to neglect what you realize in regards to the scenario or the enterprise and observe as should you’re a fly who’s simply flown into the room and does not know any of the background. As a result of should you do this, you begin to choose up on the issues just like the reactions or the confusions. For those who go in with your whole personal information, you possibly can’t actually be a fly on the wall. You must simply watch and go have a look at what is going on on right here on this explicit interplay. And also you get so much out of that. I actually imagine in that. I imagine in that by way of assessing the enterprise and the technique as nicely, not simply by way of arduous moments.
Sarah Ellis: And so if somebody is listening now and they’re having a tricky time, so the explanation truly they’ve picked up this podcast to take heed to or to observe is that they’re considering I am in one in all these form of shell shedding conditions they usually’re feeling a bit caught about form of the place to start out. As a result of I believe usually individuals really feel caught and or usually the mix of two issues. They really feel a number of doubts, you realize, prefer it begins to really feel like I failed or I will be made redundant as a result of I am simply not good at my job or I am in a poisonous tradition, however I simply cannot get out of it. So it usually feels very mounted. You are very caught. After which your self perception takes an actual knock. So there’s so much for individuals to form of deal with form of throughout that point. What’s one piece of recommendation you’d give to individuals listening if that is form of the place they’re now? Simply to start out making a little bit of progress, to start out possibly a few of that studying and rising that we all know can occur.
Zaid Al Qassab: Properly, I do not assume it is rocket science. I am not going to have the ability to say something that many individuals have not mentioned earlier than. However you aren’t alone. And also you talked about redundancy. I have been made redundant. I am a CEO now. Proper. It occurs to just about Everybody you realize, and it feels just like the worst second in your online business life on the time. However it is part of how the world works, proper? You aren’t alone. Use your folks, household, friends at work. Ideally, you realize, most individuals have somebody at work who’s their work confidant, who they discuss issues with, and that is a fantastic assist. Use a mentor, use a coach should you’re fortunate sufficient to have one. However there are many individuals who will provide you with mentoring and training with out formally being referred to as a mentor or coach. Proper? They’re simply referred to as individuals you realize and admire and really feel near a very good listeners and who’re pleasant. Proper. So the, an important factor is you are not alone. Use the experiences of different individuals. Learn the way they’d strategy it. And even when I have been in that scenario, if they seem to be a sympathetic listener and somebody who you belief, you will get good recommendation from them. I believe that’s an important factor. And I lean actually closely on my household, my pals, my colleagues who I belief at work. They’re my, they’re my bedrock for all of the difficulties moments in work and all of the troublesome enterprise selections.
Sarah Ellis: Zaid thanks a lot. I actually recognize your vulnerability and honesty with sharing a shell shedding second since you’ve type of already been by way of the expertise after which I’ve made you relive it for the good thing about us and our listeners. So I’m very grateful for that and for combining what has been a very inspirational dialog, with some actually sensible recommendation I believe everybody will be capable of be taught from. So thanks a lot.
Zaid Al Qassab: It is completely my pleasure.
