00:00: Helen asks for assist with upcoming ebook
01:02: Introduction to CEO Shell Shedding sequence
01:54: Helen’s shell shedding second
11:43: Sarah and Helen share friction they’ve expertise
16:23: Helen and Sarah’s shell shedding second about methods of working
22:35: One piece of studying recommendation
Helen Tupper: Hello, all people, it’s Helen from the Squiggly Careers Podcast. And earlier than you take heed to right now’s episode, I simply need to do one thing that I actually discover fairly laborious. That is no joke, the sixth time I’ve recorded this. And that’s as a result of I’ll ask for assist and it does not really feel simple for me to do, however right here we go. We at the moment are very near our new ebook, Be taught Like a Lobster, popping out. It comes out on the fifth of February, which implies in case you pre order now, it makes a extremely huge distinction to us. If you do not know how the ebook factor works, pre orders imply that books climb charts, it feeds the algorithm, and extra folks see our work. Which means we may also help extra folks with their profession, we may also help extra folks to develop. So in case you’ve been contemplating the ebook, if you’re a supporter of Squiggly, however you simply have not finished it but, please, please, please pre order now. It makes a extremely huge distinction to us and it means we will attain assist and help extra folks with their Squiggly profession. I am not going to say anymore, other than thanks, thanks for all the help the Squiggly Careers neighborhood give us. And let’s get on to right now’s episode.
Sarah Ellis: Hello, my title’s Sarah and that is the Squiggly Careers Podcast. That is one in all our particular episodes the place with CEOs, I am asking them about their shell shedding moments. What occurred, what helped, and phrases of knowledge that can assist you when you have got these shell shedding moments too. And I really feel like right now is an additional particular CEO slash, a really handy interview.
Helen Tupper: She wanted somebody, so she discovered me.
Sarah Ellis: So right now I do not assume I’ve ever interviewed Helen. And after I had the concept, it made me chuckle. So I used to be like, oh, this feels like it’ll be numerous enjoyable. Clearly, I’ll be very skilled and I’m going to attempt to persist with the identical questions I’ve requested the opposite CEOs in order that Helen. So I am being honest and constant. Okay, so the primary query is, are you able to share with our listeners a shell shedding second that you’ve got had because the CEO of Wonderful? If.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, I simply thought, gosh, I most likely simply. I am so open on our podcast. I really feel like I’ve most likely talked about all of them.
Helen Tupper: However I used to be eager about after I was interviewed for a podcast. And I am not gonna, I am not gonna title the podcast, I am not gonna title the particular person. Trigger I do not actually assume that’s helpful. However what occurred on the podcast was I used to be anticipating it to be sort of like only a regular good chat. Like, I hope ours are regular good chat.
Sarah Ellis: We’ll see. Wait, wait to the following query.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, however I used to be anticipating it to be like a standard good chat about squiggly careers. And it felt rather more like I used to be being interrogated and that my solutions have been continuously being challenged and like, virtually just like the integrity of squiggly careers was being challenged. And while I am at all times up for, I am at all times up for a problem. It did not really feel constructive and it felt like a shell shedding second as a result of I bear in mind pondering, oh, I need to cease this interview. After which feeling like I could not, like within the second pondering, this does not really feel prefer it’s the correct intent. I am not snug with how answering is as a result of it is taken me without warning. However I additionally do not feel capable of cease it as a result of it is, you already know, it is like a stay podcast recording and it felt very troublesome. And you already know, as our pretty little lobsters undergo, it felt fairly exposing.
Sarah Ellis: So what’s fascinating about lobsters, I am going to have you already know, simply in case you did not know this, is that they shed their shells after which afterwards, despite the fact that it has been a vitality zapping and exhausting course of, they’re higher due to it. In order that they, you already know, they develop again they usually’re larger and stronger. And listening to you there describe that, I am like, oh, it is positively shell shedding. However once you look again, do you assume you’re higher due to it or do you simply assume it was a foul expertise?
Helen Tupper: what, I did study some issues that I completely acted on since, however I did study some issues.
Sarah Ellis: Not less than you are trustworthy.
Helen Tupper: Some trustworthy. I ought to most likely do extra of them. I feel I simply type of belief folks that they have good intent. However what. Not very lengthy after the second in any respect, I did take into consideration like, okay, what would I do in a different way if I used to be on this state of affairs once more? And I feel one factor which may have helped me and I did not do was take heed to that particular person do a earlier podcast. As a result of what I did not know actually was whether or not that particular person simply did not click on with me. Like, was it a foul day? Was I only a unhealthy match for that particular person? Or was this their, Was this their type?
Sarah Ellis: Yeah. Intentionally provocative or no matter.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, yeah. And I did not know that and that that was on me as a result of I hadn’t listened to a different podcast that that particular person has finished and I did assume my studying was, oh, do not put your self in that place once more, like, go in ready and just remember to’ve listened to someone else’s podcast earlier than you’re on their present. Now, actually, I’ve not finished that. I’ve not finished that for any anybody, as a result of I sort of go, oh, I simply hope individuals are curious and working with good intent. Which neither of these issues I feel have been true in that exact occasion.
Sarah Ellis: I suppose, although, what’s fascinating is these shell shedding moments really feel uncomfortable, however they most likely do make us extra resilient, you already know, as a result of in case you assume again to the lobsters, they’ve repeated shell shedding moments and we’ve the identical in our weeks in our careers. And generally they’re these huge memorable shell shedding moments. Like that. That instance that you simply have been sharing there feels fairly visceral. You are like, I could not. I can bear in mind what that felt like. And also you appeared even, like, uncomfortable simply speaking about it. After which we’ve like all the smaller, like, shell shedding moments each week the place one thing would possibly take you without warning since you speak there about, like, being sort of taken without warning. And I assume the place we’re totally different to our new good friend the lobster is we will get some assist or help. So lobsters type of do it themselves. However I am to know possibly for that instance, but in addition typically, as CEO of Wonderful, if, like, what are among the issues which have helped you throughout these uncomfortable, vitality zapping moments? Is it folks? Is it locations? Is it one thing that totally different?
Helen Tupper: Positively folks. Folks positively helps me. So that exact state of affairs, I feel I got here again to the crew actually, actually shortly. I used to be like, ah, about this difficult factor, which I do not assume helped me to study, nevertheless it did imply that I wasn’t. I did not begin to spiral. So truly sharing it fairly shortly stopped the spiral, which meant that I might transfer extra right into a studying way of thinking. The factor that additionally helped me was getting someone’s correct reflections. So, like, within the second, individuals are like, oh, I am positive it wasn’t that unhealthy. You will be okay. You’ve got finished podcasts earlier than, which could be very supportive and helps cease the spiral. However the factor that I feel actually helped was when a few folks listened to the episode afterwards after which I sort of bought it. It actually wasn’t that unhealthy. And that was type of reassuring they usually weren’t taking away from how I felt, like, oh, you did not have to really feel unhealthy about it. Nobody mentioned that. It was simply, it sounded prefer it was actually laborious, Helen. However truly the interview is beneficial and it’s good, and that is the factor that we have to care about. And I feel it helped me to study generally to disconnect virtually just like the expertise of one thing from that output in a method. Like, do I wanna do this interview once more? No. However what was the factor? No, thanks. However was the factor that got here out, is it okay? I haven’t got to fret about two issues, if you already know what I imply. Like, the precise output was okay. However I feel typically in, in laborious moments, significantly the place I really feel weak, the factor that basically helps me shouldn’t be holding it to myself. I, you already know, like, the issue, the issue shared and simply, simply speaking it via with someone tends to assist me sort of get again on monitor. However I feel the even higher if is that not for that to be not only a supportive dialog, however a reflective dialog. As a result of supportive conversations sort of make you are feeling good, however you do not essentially study. But when I speak to you, for instance, you’ll simply naturally ask me some reflective questions. So I get help and studying out of it.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I feel it is an fascinating query for everyone. Like, how are you going to search for the educational in these shell shedding moments? As a result of typically that is the very last thing on our minds. , once you’ve simply had that interview expertise, you are not attempting to study, you are like coping and looking for your method via a second after which most likely afterwards need to do no matter your default is to make your self really feel good once more. , like, cover away, get a espresso, have a drink, like, you already know, like no matter it’s. And so I do assume it positively takes virtually a degree of studying maturity to be like, I’m going to search for the educational and I’ll do it now. , I’ll attempt to do it as shortly as I can whereas it is contemporary. Not as a result of I feel the shell shedding moments are essentially at all times repeatable. Actually the large ones I feel hardly ever are. , you hardly ever have precisely the identical state of affairs twice. I feel it is extra once you practise shell shedding moments, like studying in a shell shedding second, regardless of the subsequent one then seems such as you’ve bought some, like, some methods and means to love, search for that studying. So is that a couple of dialog with an individual who simply asks you some actually good questions? Is it about writing down the three what labored Wells? The one even higher if, is it about somebody who’s actually distant from a state of affairs? So they’ll provide you with some totally different knowledge as a result of they have that sort of distance. So although I’d by no means need to power folks into shell shedding moments, I feel the extra you do practise them, the extra sort of snug you are feeling with that, the sort of shell shedding expertise. And other people could have maybe heard us speak earlier than about, you already know, we share mistake moments in our crew, so we’ve a channel the place all people shares the errors they made and extra importantly, like, what did they study? How do you are feeling like sharing your errors in that channel? And is there the rest that you simply do, once you do make errors that sort of helps you with the uncomfortableness?
Helen Tupper: Having the method of mistake moments has positively helped me and type of seeing how nicely the crew have embraced it, as a result of I might generally I make a mistake and I will be like, I most likely preserve it to myself a bit of bit. However I feel the truth that we’ve that course of and that I actually do consider in position modelling and I actually, I actually do assume it is vital for our crew to see us taking studying from errors critically. In order that, that positively issues to me and I discover the method helpful. So after we share mistake moments, it is type of like a method, what was the error? A little bit of a what. What led to the error? So sort of like a bit of little bit of an evaluation after which a, nicely, what have you ever discovered from it? And I discover that only a very helpful factor to undergo, via mentally. However I typically, I feel my greatest factor with errors is, like, I really feel like I’ve let both, like let myself down or let somebody down. Like I’ve to letting somebody down versus letting the educational in. Like, I’ve to work fairly laborious to alter that as a result of if I really feel like I’ve let somebody, it is. It is such a robust emotion that it may be laborious for me to let the educational in. Which is, which is why that practise has been very helpful as a result of I sort of get, I get, I nonetheless really feel it, I nonetheless really feel that, oh, I am so irritated at myself that I did that and I nonetheless have that. However the course of signifies that at the least I can let the educational in. And in sharing it, you find yourself getting help from folks as nicely. And possibly you have not let somebody down fairly as badly as you thought.
Sarah Ellis: What about shell shedding moments between you and I? So we’re in like an uncommon state of affairs. So we have been pals first for a very long time. We turned co founders. You are clearly our CEO and we’re nonetheless pals primarily till the top of this episode. Till the top of this episode. I’d think about we’re comparatively uncommon dynamic in that we have pals. In order in we’ll. We’re pals. We’ll discuss different stuff aside from work at the least among the occasions every so often. However. However you already know, then we’re working an organization collectively. And never solely are you working an organization collectively, you are writing books collectively and doing occasions and all types of various issues. A few of our pals know one another, a few of our pals do not know one another. , all of these sort of issues. I feel there’s additionally sort of shell shedding moments between the 2 of us, between sort of our relationship the place issues might need felt laborious or vitality zapping and truly possibly our relationship is healthier due to these moments, however they did not really feel significantly enjoyable on the time. I imply, I can consider some clearly. In any other case I would not ask the query. So you would select. I used to be like, oh, I’d. I ponder which one she’ll be courageous sufficient to decide on. However yeah, possibly in case you select share one and if my one in my head is totally different, I will be. I am going to share one too.
Helen Tupper: Effectively, I feel most likely the usefulness is the what you study from it. Proper. So I can consider two conditions the place we’ve had friction, and the factor that we had friction about was totally different.
Sarah Ellis: I really like how slowly you are speaking.
Helen Tupper: I am like. Effectively, I am sort of pondering as a result of I am truly do not. I feel one was about cash and one other was about. I do not even know what the opposite one was actually about. Nevertheless it was positively a second of friction. However my reflection on it was that they each occurred in social conditions. And I feel what I’ve discovered is that we’re simply not superb in social conditions collectively. I actually have discovered this. So Sarah and I. I wish to sound terrible. It does. However I feel Sarah and I are as in sync as two folks I feel might ever be about work. Like, we’re so in sync with our values and what we need to obtain and the best way that we work and. And even our variations are they match collectively. Like, even the place we’re totally different approaches. I simply assume if we talked about work all day, each day, we would be in sync. It would be tremendous. However we additionally do issues aside from work and the issues that we do exterior of labor are the place our variations aren’t very in sync. Like we simply. We simply spend time with totally different folks, we do various things. We get our vitality from totally different sources. And so I feel any time we spend time with every Different. I feel there was a purpose we weren’t pals at college. It was as a result of. As a result of that was extra about that facet of us and it is so totally different from one another. And I do not assume. It isn’t that we do not respect one another’s variations. I simply assume it does not. Spending time with one another socially isn’t the place we, our connection is at its greatest.
Sarah Ellis: However I feel one of many ways in which we have been higher due to it was that we did not simply depart the friction. So we might have finished proper, we might have gone nicely, does not actually matter. However you are superb at like fixing friction quick. We’re each fairly good at calling it when one thing does not really feel proper. And after that we each. So such as you say, we’re most likely. I can not bear in mind among the specifics now, however I bear in mind us each being like that does not really feel good. And I’d additionally mirror. I feel it makes you, nicely, I feel maybe a bit like kinder to one another as nicely. , type of the best way that we present up the remainder of the time recognizing some conditions the place it is like, okay, okay, let’s be a bit kinder to one another as a result of in these conditions we’re barely totally different. It is a totally different facet of each who we’re and it’s the purpose we weren’t pals within the first place and that’s okay. However you already know, I suppose having the openness and the arrogance to speak about that as a result of think about in case you did not, you already know, like, think about in case you simply stored having these examples breed resentment.
Helen Tupper: Would not it. You’ll be, you’ll by no means develop from it.
Sarah Ellis: You’d simply be caught, caught in the identical shell. Like you already know, just like the repeat, the repeated. As a result of it did occur a few occasions I feel for us earlier than we discovered from it till we have been like, one thing’s not proper right here. That is like clearly. And then you definitely’re type of caught in your shell. You are not studying and rising after which I think it simply feels worse and worse and worse. After which that is why folks say do not run firms with your folks, you already know, as a result of then folks have, you then have one occasion the place somebody says one thing, you already know, they actually remorse and also you sort of cannot, cannot come again for it. I used to be truly additionally pondering of a non social one to okay, yeah, which I assumed may be one as a result of I used to be attempting to consider like joint shell shedding moments as nicely. I used to be pondering after we wrote you coach you this was very work associated and since we could not see one another. We had an actual. We had a little bit of a shell shedding second round like, methods of working. We had one chapter we have been writing on relationships. And it was like ironic. It was ironic that it was on relationships. I feel I simply. I at all times. I can like viscerally bear in mind this. And the best way that we have been writing that chapter was I’d write one model. Helen would learn it and clearly assume, nicely, I do not prefer it. And so what she would do is stand up actually early. Trigger she wakes up actually early, virtually like rewrite her model and ship it. And I’d get up within the morning at like no matter time, seven most likely. And Helen had despatched me like 4 million messages within the final two hours. It’d all been like redone. I would type of breed resentment. Then I would wait until she’d like. I wasn’t like ready, nevertheless it was most likely like as soon as Helen had gone to mattress or like later within the day. After which I would be like, nicely, this isn’t proper. After which I’d simply do my model once more. And so we simply had this like. I feel it was most likely solely about three days, nevertheless it did really feel actually unhealthy the place we have been type of sort of. It is like passive aggressive, I assume, is not it? Since you’re not truly arguing. You are simply going my method, my method.
Helen Tupper: You are caught once more, aren’t you? I assume.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, you are caught in your shell once more.
Helen Tupper: As a result of like, with the intention to develop, generally you do must say the laborious issues. Which does not must be sound like a foul factor. It may be simply this is not working like that may be saying a tough factor.
Sarah Ellis: And the opposite factor that I ponder whether has helped each of us, and I feel that is sort of what you have been describing earlier than is I feel we’ve each bought higher at, you already know, the entire let it go to let it develop factor. Like, in case you and I are pondering very in a different way about one thing virtually. I feel the best way that we resolve it now, and I feel we’re typically higher due to it, is we each go, nicely, let’s individually each let go of what we expect. Like I feel A, you assume B. And we each go, okay, let’s ignore A and B. Let’s simply remind ourselves, you already know, like why we’re doing what we’re doing or what we’re attempting to realize, or what issues most. It is like a much bigger query. After which when you begin speaking about that query, it lets you sort of discover your method via. You retain the bits which can be vital, however you do not get too connected. And I feel that helps you in these shell shedding moments. As a result of I feel it is actually pure in these moments to really feel defensive, to cling on. , it is typically extra snug to cling onto the shell you’ve got already bought than it’s to shed the shell. And so I feel understanding that it sort of takes that letting go, which is not very enjoyable and you do not need to do it, however simply having the arrogance to try this. I feel once you’re eager about, like, what this seems like for you, in case you’re in an setting the place it feels tougher, maybe you do not see folks being weak or sort of speaking about learnings from, you already know, we’re speaking about, oh, yeah, we simply all share all of our errors. Like that is a standard factor. In plenty of firms that will really feel actually laborious to do or in plenty of groups that will really feel actually laborious to do. So I feel you additionally do must do this type of in the correct method for you, relying on sort of the place you’re in the intervening time.
Helen Tupper: I feel one other factor that may imply you may get caught in a state of affairs is the place you do not sort of change the context in order that, you already know, if we’re simply messaging one another, then generally that may get misinterpreted. And even final evening we have been messing one another and it might have. We might have gotten a bit antsy at one another. And now I feel we all know one another nicely sufficient now that we will sort of maintain, we will maintain that debate. But in addition we do talk about rather a lot. And so I feel if you’re in a tough second, I do assume like altering the context, like, oh, can I’m going for a stroll and speak? Or I get on the cellphone as a result of I’ve bought a state of affairs, it might be actually useful to only get your perspective on it. And like simply current on Microsoft Groups messages and WhatsApp and Google Docs with feedback or no matter, no matter we’re doing the place one thing would possibly really feel prefer it’s not fairly working, I feel possibly altering the context would possibly change how you are feeling in regards to the laborious factor and again to sort of just like the letting the emotion go to let the educational in factor. That may assist.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it is fascinating, truly. I would not. I feel with numerous our examples, as soon as we speak to one another, we’re okay. , typically it’s as a result of clearly you are having to make use of message and WhatsApp and also you’re possibly commenting in paperwork. I feel in case you’re discovering it laborious to you already know, you are like, you are writing 5 million feedback simply on one web page. You are like, okay, it is most likely not time to place feedback. It is most likely time to have a dialog.
Helen Tupper: Sure.
Sarah Ellis: Or like, you and I can return and ahead on concepts very quick. And truly we will critique concepts very quick in a sort of very low maintain method. Like, it is like tremendous. Like, oh, I do not assume that will work due to this. And you are like, yeah, most likely not. , like, we will do this. What was fascinating about after we have been doing that yesterday, we had another person from our crew concerned. After which truly I feel we each paused and thought, oh, that this might look actually harsh. , from the skin in, this might appear like. And it wasn’t truly. I feel we have had method harsher, like, interactions with one another. However, you already know, like, going, oh, that will not work due to this. However we simply say it in a really type of quick and succinct method. As a result of what we are attempting to do is we’re virtually like going forwards and backwards actually quick. It is like, oh, what about this? Or that might be, oh, yeah, what about. Oh, that’ll be tough. And we’re simply so used to doing it, we simply do not give it some thought. After which I feel if. Remember as nicely, to your level on context, Change the context. But in addition remember in case you’re not one to at least one, which you are not at all times. Usually. We’re in group. We’re in group shell shedding moments, proper? Like an organization goes via a tough time, a crew is on a extremely, actually troublesome venture. I feel that additionally modifications, like the way you would possibly study these issues, the way you sort of do it collectively. So simply to complete, Helen, thanks. Thanks for the interview. Thanks for interviewing me. Thanks. Thanks. I am so intrigued to see what folks assume listening. I am like, oh, are you the CEO they thought you have been? Or possibly they did not take into consideration you being CEO. I do not know. She’s higher. I’ve requested all our different CEOs there, so I need to get yours as nicely. As a result of we will mix all of them and examine and distinction, see what everybody’s saying, see what the themes are. What’s one piece of studying recommendation that you’d give to all of our listeners for his or her shell shedding moments? So particularly, after they’re going via these laborious vitality, zapping moments which can be uncomfortable, however we’re higher due to them. What’s one factor you’d say to folks.
Helen Tupper: I do not assume you need to be outlined by it, so I feel you need to be developed by it, however I do not assume outlined by. And so. And I am going to simply provide you with an instance of this. Perhaps one in all your shell shedding moments was the place you did not get on with a supervisor. Or possibly one in all your shell shedding moments was fairly an enormous failure you have got at work. I feel the trick here’s what are you able to study from that have within the second that may assist you to to study, develop and develop? However I do not assume for the remainder of your profession it’s best to simply be going again and again to that second. That second is completed. That second is gone. You might be larger and higher due to it. Search for the following second. And the explanation I say it’s I speak to some folks they usually’re so. They’re so outlined and affected and dented. They’re so dented by a few of these actually laborious moments. And I feel we virtually need to see. Take from it what we will after which depart it behind. As a result of there are tons extra shell shedding moments forward of you to return.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah.
Helen Tupper: And I do not. Dragging your self again to the previous when if you already know you’ve got discovered and grown from it, like, simply depart it behind, like sort of transfer on to the following. That may be mine.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah. I do assume that is good recommendation. I feel one of many issues that we are saying and study like a lobster is I feel you’re typically remembered extra for a way you virtually present up after a tough second or like throughout it. , in case you’ve made a mistake, it is what you do after the error that folks bear in mind moderately than the error you. And I can not even bear in mind a few of these examples. We have been speaking right now, we have been like, oh, I can not even bear in mind precisely bear in mind.
Helen Tupper: It felt laborious.
Sarah Ellis: However yeah. And I used to be. I used to be attempting to assume for a few of them and I could not. And so it is fascinating, nevertheless it’s like, it is truly sort of what you do subsequent that issues. And a part of that’s like, have you ever discovered in order that then you’ll be able to take into consideration what you do subsequent? And it’s that capacity to let go, I feel is such a talent. And for somebody like me who’s extra of a thinker and mirror and that reflection can flip to rumination. That may really feel simple to say, however actually laborious to do. However among the issues that I feel may also help you to try this, you already know, in case you’re like, I do know I ought to do this. I feel Helen’s recommendation is nice. I simply do not know, like, how to try this. That is typically the place I do assume writing issues down makes a large distinction. There’s all that proof. I feel a few of it was from Ethan Cross in Chatter. . Proper. Should you can write your personal storey down and also you truly write it out, you are type of getting out of your mind and that is a great way of letting it go. Or in case you can inform the storey indirectly. However, you already know, in case you’re simply retalking about it on a regular basis, you already know, to your folks, and you are still going again over and again over it, in some way you are not sort of transferring on.
Helen Tupper: I agree.
Sarah Ellis: Helen, thanks a lot to your interview. I really feel like now we’ve to put in writing one other ebook. That signifies that you get to interview me, however that is most likely not a adequate purpose to put in writing one other ebook as a result of we have solely simply completed penning this one.
Helen Tupper: That is very true.
Sarah Ellis: Thanks a lot for listening, everybody. I actually hope you are having fun with the CEO Shell Shedding sequence and we’ll be again tomorrow for one more episode. Bye for now.
